I honestly don’t understand how anyone can watch this scene and think “oh yes, he’s totally 100% a villain with no heart and is pure evil.” or “He’s a villain, but Bucky is a victim.”
Like yeah, Bucky’s a victim, he was tortured, his mind was messed with – and you really think Loki didn’t go through much the same thing, only a million times worse?!?!?!?! You think Thanos and his minions were somehow less creative and effective in their torture methods than Hydra? Let’s face it, Hydra is made of human beings. Thanos is a titan with immeasurable powers at his disposal. Even with the enhancements of his body by the experiments done on him by Arnim Zola, Bucky’s still human. Loki is a Frost Giant, with stamina, healing, and constitution that is much higher than even an enhanced mortal’s – and not only is he a sorcerer, but he survived falling into the void, something that should have scattered his molecules across the cosmos. He can – and likely did – withstand tortures much more violent, much harsher, much more terrifying than what happened to Bucky.
I mean DAMN they even have a similar storyline – they both fall and then undergo torture. (Yes, Bucky was experimented on prior to his fall. Well, Loki had his ENTIRE EXISTENCE shattered before his fall.)
Joss’s storytelling is in fine form here, and I understand why he didn’t have a flashback sequence showing that torture, at least from a storytelling standpoint because a)it wasn’t strictly necessary to the plot, not with this scene (as well as the tag scene at the end of the Thor credits) to show that Loki had been tortured, and b)It likely would have earned the movie an R rating, which Marvel wouldn’t have allowed. But part of me wishes he had. Even just a tiny one, like the one with Gollum in The Lord of the Rings, that doesn’t show the torture directly, but shows the pain the character was in when he gave up the name Baggins to the orcs.
So like, how does that thought process even begin…and how does anyone not see that the safest place for Loki to be, when Thanos comes for him, is with the might of Asgard to protect him? How does anyone not see that Asgard won’t willingly protect Loki, the God of Lies and Mischief, the worthless adopted son that always lived in Thor’s shadow? How does anyone not see that, in Loki’s entire character arc so far, the only protection after the truth of his parentage came out was the protection he gained for himself? How does anyone not see that?
It boggles my mind.
I don’t. Because it isn’t Thanos’ MO. Or are you telling me he tortured Ronan, too? He finds people with ambitions he can use to manipulate them into doing his bidding. It is much more effective than torture–he doesn’t have to worry that something will happen to shake his programming, as obviously happened with Bucky is TWS, just that his minion will fail or double-cross him. And that is when his power comes into play.
There is a difference between torture beforehand and torture after-the-fact. Everything you’re quoting is to show what Thanos will do if Loki fucks him over, not what he did do to get Loki on his side. You’re conveniently leaving out the quotes where Loki shows outright insubordination to his supposed master. “I don’t threaten,” and, “Until I open the doors, until your force is mine to command, you are but words.” Not to mention the obvious deal between them. If Loki gets Thanos the Tesseract, Thanos will help Loki take Midgard. If he was controlling Loki through fear, he wouldn’t have to offer him a damned thing but a relatively pain-free life.
The safest place for Loki after he fails is indeed Asgard. I’m sure he knew that is where he would end up if he failed, counted on it even, but that he attacked earth solely to get there just doesn’t follow. Why take the long way around? His actions in the first Thor movie would warrant some punishment, but nothing like what he brought down on himself in Avengers. You seriously believe Asgard will marshal more forces to protect a prisoner who only narrowly escaped a death sentence than a Prince of the Realm, no matter how much he is disliked?
You’re honestly telling me that you think it was possible for writers to incorporate a torture scene into TWS, but not Avengers? That they could not have so much as alluded to it without getting an R rating? That Loki, a god who has lived for a millenia, would break in less than the span of one year when it took HYDRA much longer than that to break Bucky, a mere mortal?
The reason it isn’t in the movie isn’t because it’s unnecessary, but because it never happened.
We are talking about Thanos, right? The same Thanos that killed two entire races, save for the two young females (Gamora (whose family Thanos killed right in front of her) and Nebula) he raised through torture both physical and mental to become his assassin minions?
(And no, he hasn’t visited retribution on those who defied him in Guardians of the Galaxy. YET. Knowing it’s inevitable and waiting for it to descend on them is, after all, part of the mind fuck. Thanos has all the time in the universe, after all.)
Manipulation is actually less effective than torture, because as soon as the person doing the manipulation no longer has the thing of value being offered/the person being manipulated realizes that the manipulator either can’t or won’t give them what they want, then the deal’s off and, more than likely, the person being manipulated is going to turn on the manipulator. (See: too many movies and books and tv series to list. It’s a well-used trope for a reason.) Torture, on the other hand…it takes a lot to break through that. Bucky was trying to kill Steve from the moment he was given the assignment right up until Steve fell from the disintegrating helicarrier. And this was after Steve freed him from under the beam that was crushing him. It took a lot for Steve to break through Hydra’s programming and reach Bucky. He was willing to let BUCKY KILL HIM FOR FUCK’S SAKE. And if Steve hadn’t just orchestrated the demise of Hydra so that they couldn’t get their hands on Bucky again, all of that effort to reach him would have been in vain.
And who’s to say that Loki wanted to rule Midgard in the first place? I mean, of all the choices available to him, it makes no logical sense that such would be something he wanted. It would make more logical sense for Thanos to offer him the rule of Asgard/the entire nine realms (both for Loki and for Thanos’ own goal of obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet). And Loki’s resentment is towards Asgard and some of her people, not Midgard. Of course, the tesseract happens to be on Midgard. And it would make logical sense for Thanos to not want Loki to end up in Asgard, one of the realms most able to effectively oppose him and his plans. So Thanos needs to give Loki an incentive to go to Midgard instead. And since Loki wants revenge on Asgard more than he wants to rule Midgard, that incentive would be…torture, and the cessation of it.
You’re also forgetting the part where The Other said “You think you know pain?” Now, he could be referring to the pain Loki experienced when his entire existence was shattered/what happened during Thor, except for this inconvenient detail:
And these:
All of which show evidence of recent physical torture, and is what The Other was referring to. That’s not just the effects of traveling through the tesseract portal – look at the way his back gives out on him. Think about how his back continues to pain him throughout the rest of the movie. Look at his face, at the dark circles around his eyes, the sunken state of his cheeks, how much thinner and bonier he looks compared to how he looked in Thor. That is a person who has undergone torture. Pure and simple.
There’s also the fact that Thor traveled from Asgard to Midgard via Dark Energy – a force that is supposed to be rife with danger to those who use it, even worse than the effects of traveling via the tesseract – and arrived on the top of the quinjet looking pissed but still fresh as a daisy.
Think about Thor’s question to Loki on the cliff: “Who controls the would-be king?!”
Then there’s the fact that, as virgo-79pointed out (and as I have pointed out before), Loki’s personality/demeanor changes after being hulk-smashed – the first time in the whole movie he sustains a blow to the head. I.E., cognitive recalibration.
Then there’s also the fact that both Joss and Tom have alluded to Loki having been tortured.
There’s also the fact that Loki acts so blase’ about any torture Fury might inflict on him. “After. After whatever tortures Fury could concoct, you would appear as a friend. A balm.” That speaks to a)having experienced worse so whatever these “ants” can come up with holds no threat to him and b)being familiar with how torture works (i.e., bad cop/good cop).
As for Asgard, I find it difficult to believe that the realm who had to deal with the aftermath of the Bifrost being destroyed and the nine realms descending into chaos – and remember it was Loki’s actions that led to that – that lost soldiers in the ensuing battles as well as during the events in Thor, as well as what you have mentioned, his attack on Midgard – would protect Loki. And even before all of those events took place, before the first trip to Jotunheim, a servant laughed at him. (A deleted scene, but still, shows that even as a prince he wasn’t held in that high of a regard.) Thor likely would, but remember Sif and Volstagg both threatened to kill him. Frigga would have, but then she was killed. So how then is Loki going to be able to secure their protection? Through deception. (Here I’m talking about him sitting on the throne in the guise of Odin at the end of Thor:TDW.)
And yes, I believe that Thanos broke Loki in less than a year. That’s my entire fucking point when I say such scenes would have earned an R-rating, when I mentioned that Loki was of a higher constitution than even an enhanced Bucky. Think about how intense it had to have been. These are just educated guesses on my part, but I see it involving vivisection at the very least. Probably some kind of energy/seidr torture. Others have posited that, after finding out Loki’s Frost Giant lineage, Thanos tortured him with fire/burned him. Then there’s also the possibility of sexual torture of some kind. And, as I mentioned in the link above, warping of his mind via the mind gem in the sceptre. And honestly all of that probably does not even begin to scratch the surface of the sadism that Thanos, mad titan, courtier to Death, is capable of, never mind The Other. (There’s another reason for it to not be shown – for all of our imaginations, nothing we humans/the writers can come up with would match the sadism of Thanos.)
The torture scene in TWS happened as both part of the plot and as a way to advance it. The Winter Soldier was starting to remember being Bucky, so they had to wipe him. Even the mental flashbacks was part of that – they weren’t shown as some kind of motivation, they were shown because it was part of The Winter Soldier starting to remember. Physical manifestations of his surfacing memories.
They could have done something like that in Avengers, but as I said it was unnecessary to the plot/advancing the plot. The Other smacking a ball of searing energy into the side of Loki’s face was enough of a reminder to Loki of what had already been done to him and what awaited him if he failed. And that was just a reminder. A taste. I mean goddamn…
This was all very eloquently argued … and I’d like to add something I’ve always had in the back of my mind. Loki was obsessed with making Midgardians kneel … but who showed up on Earth kneeling?
This is a very subservient position. Who’s presence was he just in? Thanos.
Also, another point to bring up, Loki goes to conquer Midgard with the god damned Mind Stone. Based off what I’ve seen of Thanos, I don’t think he would just give away an infinity stone to a god whose title is “Mischief, Lies, and Chaos”. He would have to be pretty sure that however was in possession of one of the greatest powers in the friggin’ galaxy was well under his control before sending it away.
Not to mention, it’s the Mind Stone. There’s a huge possibility that Thanos could have used it’s power on Loki before sending him to Midgard and he was brought back with the skull crushing force of the Hulk. Like what was said above about cognitive calibration.
Exactly. Think about what that mind stone did when it created Ultron and what kind of thing it created … Loki was in possession of that. I believe he was possessed by it. His mind was not in the right frame of mind to be wielding it, having been tortured. Vision was created with JARVIS/Mjolnir … and you don’t get more “worthy” than mjolnir. That’s why Vision is A.I. Gandhi. Loki’s mind was gone when he had the gem, that’s why he acted so crazy throughout the movie. And the stark contrast in personality we got in The Dark World.
Also, the argument about Ronin being Thano’s M.O. I think Thanos picked Ronan because he was a much more malevolent being than Loki. He didn’t need to be tortured first. He didn’t want to be king of a realm, he wanted to DESTROY a realm. Thanos went in a different direction after Loki … he wouldn’t keep doing the same thing over and over again wanting the same results. And then Ronan turned on him. And so did both of his daughters that he tortured. That didn’t work out for him either.
Which is why we got the teaser at the end of Age of Ultron. Thanos being like, “Fine bitches, I’LL DO IT MYSELF.”
Tasertrickslove 